Forum - Atlantica Online - Event Pesca, non credo.

[PaulGhost]

Questo è un topic che ho letto su un forum di Atlantica, non potevo non quotare, credo tutti i giocatori di Atlantica dovrebbero dargli un'occhiata.

B-Joe - 1/21/2010 6:45 PM

I see three main reasons that people are angry about the new fishing event:

Summary:
1. Lack of communication / misinformation
2. Stupidity - either the developers did not run the numbers on the economics of the event, or they did not expect the players to do any analysis which would discover how idiotic using silver bait is.
3. Transparent attempt at market manipulation
a. Raise prices of item mall stuff (atlas ore) by increasing demand.
b. Depress prices of non-item mall stuff to counteract perceived inflation (gilgamesh shards, beating hearts, powders of life/spirit/soul, and anything that is crafted with any of those items.)


Here are the details:

1. Lack of communication / misinformation
12:30AM PST - The servers are back up following the maintenance.
04:00AM PST - The first forum thread appears in Palatino Plaza noting that silver bait is not catching event coupons.
07:50AM PST - Following 45 posts the forum, [GM]Czar reports that he has notified the developers.
08:15AM PST - A player submitted bug report ticket is opened.
09:45AM PST - Another forum thread is started in Sviatki's Main Event.
02:30PM PST - An update is requested on the bug report.
07:30PM PST - After over 11 hours since the bug ticket was opened, [GM]Tesla closes it saying "Silver Baits are not bugged."
10:00PM PST - A news announcement is posted on the web site stating that the silver bait bug issue has already been fixed.
11:00PM PST - An additional 23 posts have appeared in the Palatino Plazo forum thread, 7 posts in the Sviatki thread, and 22 hours have passed since maintenance ended. [GM]Czar reports on the Palatino forum that the bug has been confirmed and "should be fixed sometime tonight."

No in-game announcement was ever made warning players not to use silver bait after the problem was discovered and confirmed. Many players continued to obtain and use silver baits during that time. Players attempted to explain the issue to each other during the communication vacuum.

The GMs and developers did not effectively communicate with each other, leading to false information and significant delays.

There were (at least) three different forums with threads regarding the patch - Community Corner (pre-patch thread with hundreds of posts), Palatino Plaza, and Sviatki's Main Event. Players trying to get any real official info had to sort through a significant pile of unrelated posts to find the true status.


2. Stupidity - either the developers did not run the numbers on the economics of the event, or they did not expect the players to do any analysis which would discover how idiotic using silver bait is.

Since we don't have any official information on catch rates for silver bait from nDoors...

(why not? what's the big secret? why not tell us what we should really expect. we understand the nature of randomness and sample size. where is the harm in telling us what the real % are for fishing or boxes or anything? If we had real information, we could make intelligent decisions with realistic expectations. In the absence of information, I tend to not do stuff --- like buy boxes from item mall!)

...I have to rely on my own experience and the reported experiences of other players, even though it is a low sample size.

Pre-"silver bait bug fix", I used 128 silver bait costing 38,300 fish points and received 10,224 fish points back, for a loss of 73%.
A recent forum post by "kira lia" claims after 1000 silver baits costing 300,000 fish points, 24 coupons and 55,000 were caught resulting in a decrease of 82% in fish points from the start.
kira's 24 coupons cost 245,000 fish points, or about 10,000 fish points per coupon.
My experience is that fish points are worth between 400 and 600 gold each depending on market conditions. This values kira's coupons at between 4,000,000 and 6,000,000 gold each. So, let's use 5mil for our estimation purposes here.
Coupons from gold bait cost about 1/2 of an atlas ore. (The actual cost is likely a little less to account for the rare puppy bag catch, but let's stick with 1/2 atlas for our estimation). Pre-event, atlas ore cost 2,500,000 - 3,500,000 each. So, gold bait values coupons at between 1,250,000 and 1,750,000 each. Let's use 1.5mil for our estimation.

Now I want to compare the implied gold value of event rewards when using silver bait vs gold bait.

-------Item-------|-coupons-|----silver bait-----|-----gold bait ----|
Thoroughbred.......|........32...|......160,000,00 0...|......48,000,000...|
Hackney..............|........45...|......225,000, 000...|......67,500,000...|
Shire...................|......120...|......600,00 0,000...|.....180,000,000...|
Heavanly Horse.....|......170...|......850,000,000...|..... 255,000,000...|
Byz. Elephant.......|.......220...|...1,100,000,000...| .....330,000,000...|
Volcanic Raptor.....|......300...|...1,500,000,000...|..... 450,000,000...|
Snow Tiger...........|......450...|...2,250,000,000...| .....675,000,000...|
Puppy Bag............|...1,000...|...5,000,000,000...|.. .1,500,000,000...|

The first thing I notice is that gold bait values for the reward mounts are close to pre-event market prices for those mounts.
The next, is that using silver bait is a huge rip-off!!!! Even if our estimates are off by 50%, there is no way a thoroughbred is worth 80mil, let alone the calculated 160mil. You are so much better off trading your fish points at pointry for items, selling the items, then buying your mount in cash, or even using that gold to buy atlas ore and use that ore to buy gold bait.

The economics here are so lopsided wrong that either the developers are idiots, or they think we are idiots. With a coupon catch rate of 2.5%, using silver bait is crazy! Proposing that we use silver bait is insulting! It assaults my intelligence!! I am offended!!!

So, what should the catch rate be? If we quadrupled the catch rate to 10%, and subtracted that extra 7.5% from the caught fish points, then from 1000 silver bait we would have about 100 coupons and 50,000 fish points. Then take our initial 300,000 fish points, subtract the 50,000 new fish points caught, to get 250,000 fish points spent to catch 100 coupons, giving 2,500 fish points per coupon. Using our 500 gold per fish point figure gives us 1,250,000 gold per coupon. That figure lines up much better with the gold bait costs, especially if we discount the 1.5mil price because of the catch-a-puppy-bag possibility.


Now, if I give nDoors developers the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they have done the math I just did, and that they are not idiots, then why would they use such a ridiculous catch rate for silver bait? The answer is point #3 below.

3. Transparent attempt at market manipulation
a. Raise prices of item mall stuff (atlas ore) by increasing demand.
b. Depress prices of non-item mall stuff to counteract perceived inflation (gilgamesh shards, beating hearts, powders of life/spirit/soul, and anything that is crafted with any of those items.)

This section is pretty self explaining. This is your game, nDoors. It is your market to control. I can't blame you from trying to maximize your profit. I can't blame you for wanting to "fix" the inflation that some have complained about.

What I resent is that you bothered to include an unviable option to the event, trying to trick us into believing that you included options for both paying and non-paying players to participate in the event. It's a fraud.

Conclusion:
If you want to retain your players, here is my advice:
1. Communicate.
a. Let the players know about problems as soon as possible. Use in-game announcements as you have done previously.
b. Use one common location for players and GMs to discuss problems. The multiple forum threads and the lack of updates in them frustrates us. If one GM was taking lead on an issue and has to leave to get sleep, that is understandable. Please hand off the lead to another GM until you get back.
c. GMs should use some method to inform each other about major issues in the game and their status. It is inexcusable for a GM at 7:50AM to acknowledge a bug and another GM to dismiss a bug report on the same issue 12 hours later.
2. Respect.
a. When you receive a bug report, actually investigate whether the bug exists or not. Try and duplicate the problem in the game yourself. Talk to the developers about it. To close a bug report because you were told that it was tested clean before the maintenance window is arrogant and disrespectful.
b. Don't deceive the players by giving them stuff that would be stupid for them to use, like silver bait.
c. Be open and transparent. Let us know stuff like - what could be caught from using silver bait, and what the catch rate is for each item. Include that info with the patch notes. (btw, I really liked how you released those before the maintenance window. That was good. That is transparency. Bravo!)

Thank you to nDoors for reading this, and hopefully implementing some of the suggestions. Thank you to the players who are sure to respond with their opinions on how to improve the gaming experience.

- BuzzardJoe

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A quick little mathematical exercise on how I plan on getting my puppy bag using silver bait.

A 1,000 silver bait trial resulted in a coupon catch rate of about 2.5%. Using that rate as a starting point for this plan....

To catch 1000 coupons would require 1000/0.025 = 40,000 silver bait.

At 300 fish points each, 40,000 silver bait cost 40,000*300 = 12,000,000 fish points.

I have fishing action level 100, so I can use "best bait" which, in my experience, catches blowfish 65% of the time and shark 35% of the time. I will assume that I get the average reward from albert for blowfish (18 fish points) and sharks (20 fish points). So, my average fish results in (18*0.65)+(20*0.35)=18.7.

To catch 12,000,000 fish points would require 12,000,000/18.7 = 641,711 fish. So, to catch 641,711 fish, I need 641,711 "best bait"

Best bait is crafted by 250 carp + 250 beef + 50 sesame oil = 100 best bait. So, I need 641,711/100 = 6,418 batches of best bait.
....6,418*250 = 1,604,200 carp. Carp costs 300 each, so 1,604,200*300 = 481,350,000 gold
....6,418*250 = 1,604,200 beef. Beef costs 300 each, so 1,604,200*300 = 481,350,000 gold
....6,418*50 = 320,900 sesame oil. Sesame oil costs 500 each, so 320,900*500 = 160,450,000 gold
Total bait cost is 481,350,000+481,350,000+160,450,000 = 1,123,150,000 gold

Lucky me, I happen to have 1.1billion gold in the bank, so I begin crafting my bait.
According to the aop.muwing.com craft calculator, using my autocraft level 100 takes 2 minutes and 53 seconds per batch of best bait. That comes to 173 seconds per batch.
Total craft time will be 6,418*173 = 1,110,314 seconds, or 1,110,314/60 = 18,506 minutes, or 18,506/60 = 308 hours, or 308/24 = 13 days

W00t, so now that I have enough bait, I begin fishing with my unbreakable, 100% catch rate acong rod.

If a fish is caught every 30 seconds, 641,711 fish would be caught in 641,711/2 = 320,856 minutes, or 320,856/60 = 5,348 hours, or 5,348/24 = 222 days.

Cool, so now I have enough fish points to buy the required 40,000 silver bait. Now, I need to fish that silver bait...

40,000 silver bait would be used in 40,000/2 = 20,000 minutes, or 20,000/60 = 333 hours, or 333/24 = 14 days.

Nice, so I've spent 1.1 billion gold in best bait materials, and 13 days crafting best bait, 222 days fishing the best bait, and 14 days fishing the silver bait, for a total of 249 days.

Since I started on the first day of the event, January 19, I should be done by September 25. I am so looking forward to getting my puppy bag on September 25!!! It's gonna be so awesome!

- BuzzardJoe

[XXN91]

azzardo a dire che mi sembra un po nerdoso come event, se si devono prender 600k di pesci

Non giocando ad atlantica, non so quanto ci voglia per prendere un pesce..

Comunque, interessante come event, almeno hanno senso, dato che danno le cavalcature

Ps: atlantica mi sta facendo gola, magari farò un salto sul gioco

[tiborb]

Uff... ho il PC ancora "fuori uso" e non posso giocare ad atlantica (ma ad allods si )